Tell me what you think:

In regards to the article "Did Spiritual Israel replace Natural Israel", there is a possibility that some might be confused by the Apostle John's words at Revelation 7:4 which reads:

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:"

One might ask, how is it possible for the 144,000 to be the Israel of God when it is said that they're sealed OUT OF the sons of Israel?  Is Jehovah making a distinction here?  Paul says that is indeed the case; Romans 9:6-8 states:

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

Here Paul is stating that according to Jehovah, just because an individual is a descendant of Abraham does not mean they're part of "Israel".  But rather, it is those who are chosen to fulfill Jehovah's promise in creating "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9) making up the 144,000 persons to rule as priests and kings. (Revelation 20:4-6)

Paul also makes clear that these individuals are chosen by Jehovah for his own purposes, and not through any specific actions of their own.  (Romans 9:11)

This group makes up the Israel of God.

So what about those who have the earthly prospect?  They are represented as the "sons of Abraham" mentioned in Galations 3:7-9:

"Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham. Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: “By means of you all the nations will be blessed.” Consequently those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with faithful Abraham."

Please note that these persons who exercise faith in Jehovah are referred to as "sons of Abraham", but NOT the Israel of God.  So if we re-read the scripture at Revelation 7:4, we would come to understand that the "Israel of God" are sealed [or chosen out of] the "sons of Israel", which would be the equivalent of "sons of Abraham".  Or in other words, the royal priesthood to rule as kings and priests are chosen out of those God declared righteous due to faith.

Tell me what you think, did I make any sense?
 

Thank you for the additional information and your research concerning my article on the Israel of God. You indeed make sense and I am glad you got the point I was trying to make.

The “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16), or simply “Israel” at Romans 9:6 and 11:26, refers to the 144,000 who have been chosen and sealed by Jehovah out of “every tribe of the sons of Israel.” (Rev. 7:4-8) As can be seen, there is a clear distinction between “Israel” (Israel of God), and the twelve tribes of Israel. Had the Jews as God’s people proved faithful to their covenant and accepted Christ Jesus as the promised seed, then the entire “Israel of God” would have been exclusively chosen from among them, the twelve literal tribes of Israel (Jacob). Since they rejected the promised Messiah, God in turn rejected them, and replaced some of those who would have been chosen as natural branches on the domestic tree of the Israel of God, with wild branches of people of the nations. “If the root is holy, the branches are also.” “And In this manner all Israel will be saved,” the entire number of 144,000. (Rom. 11:13-32; John 15:1-6)

Paul, an apostle to the nations, explains:

“9 Now then, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it for Gentiles, too? Well, what about Abraham? We have been saying he was declared righteous by God because of his faith. 10 But how did his faith help him? Was he declared righteous only after he had been circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? The answer is that God accepted him first, and then he was circumcised later!

11 The circumcision ceremony was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are made right with God by faith. 12 And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 It is clear, then, that God's promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was not based on obedience to God's law, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith. 14 So if you claim that God's promise is for those who obey God's law and think they are "good enough" in God's sight, then you are saying that faith is useless. And in that case, the promise is also meaningless. 15 But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)

16 So that's why faith is the key! God's promise is given to us as a free gift. And we are certain to receive it, whether or not we follow Jewish customs, if we have faith like Abraham's. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17 That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, "I have made you the father of many nations." This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who brings into existence what didn't exist before.” —Romans 4:9-17, New Living Translation.

Thus, “every tribe of the sons of Israel” mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8, refers to all of Christ’s disciples who have faith like Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile, and from among them God has chosen and sealed 144,000 who are the Israel of God, or simply “Israel”. These are the ones Jehovah foreordained and chose “in union with [Christ] before the founding of the world,” when first mentioning the promised seed back in the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:15; Eph. 1:3-5) The old Law covenant produced the promised seed, Christ Jesus, while the new covenant makes possible the sealing of those in union with Christ, the Israel of God. (Rom. 7:4; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 10:15-22)
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I don't know if you have written on this specific topic but it seems to be a thread that flows throughout the Christian Greek scriptures. I found at least 8 references to it and by more than just Paul. Of particular interest to me is the part, "UNTIL" I place your enemies...."

Do we know the start of the "until" portion of this prophecy or how about the time before the "until" since this word must be denoting an ending of a period and the beginning of one after it?

“The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I know that the period before the "until" was up until 1914 and the period after the "until" has been since 1914.

What other explanation could fit?
 

The start of “until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet” is upon Jesus' resurrection and sitting down at his Father's right hand, presenting at that time the value of his sacrifice. Paul writes: “For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” At that time he “sat down at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Hebrews 9:24; 10:12,13; Matt. 22:43,44)

Although Jesus could say that “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth,” he would need to sit at his Father's right hand and wait until God’s appointed time would arrive for him to exercise his authority to “go subduing in the midst of [his] enemies,” making them “a stool for his feet.” As you note, Paul was quoting from Psalms 110. There it explains what the subduing of his enemies involves: “Jehovah himself at your right hand will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger. He will execute judgment among the nations; He will cause a fullness of dead bodies. He will certainly break to pieces the head one over a populous land.” (Psalms 110:1,2 5,6; Matt. 28:18)

Daniel the prophet saw in vision God’s appointed time when the “son of man” was given the authority to execute judgment among the nations by receiving “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Dan. 7:13,14) The Scriptures tell us that once Jesus, the “son of man,” receives authority to go subduing in the midst of his enemies, and to “execute judgment among the nations,” that he will start with his enemies within his own household. (Acts 17:31; 1 Peter 4:17,18)

Jesus attaches great urgency to the time when he comes “the second time.” (Heb. 9:28) He puts his enemies on notice, “Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.” Yes, he will come quickly and unexpectedly to confront the “evil slave” among his people, who had been given the responsibility to feed the members of his household but whom he surprises in the act of beating them instead, because to them the master’s return seemed to be delaying. Also, at that time he will remove all causes of stumbling and wicked persons out of his kingdom. (Psalms 2:6-9, 12; Matt. 13:40-42; 24:48-51; Luke 19:27; Phil. 3:18; Rev. 2:16) After he cleanses his own household he will then execute judgment upon the nations. (Zeph. 1:14-2:3; Rev. 19:11-21)

His faithful disciples are also admonished, “I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.” (Rev. 3:11; 22:7,12,20) In fact, since we do not know exactly when the until would be, when he returns with kingly authority, Jesus repeatedly warned his disciples, “Keep on the watch . . . because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. . . prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.” (Matt. 24:42-44; Luke 12:40)

The Scriptures show how Jesus will come quickly and events will move very swiftly once he is given the authority as king over the nations. It is unlikely that many decades will pass between him receiving this authority and acting upon it. Therefore, the until is still future, but we must “prove [ourselves] ready, because at an hour that [we] do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”

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Hi Brother Perimeno
You said.."...If our unity is disrupted, who really is the one responsible for that? If someone were to tell you that you must trust him the same as you trust God and Christ, would that not raise your eyebrows? Is that not already an untrustworthy statement? Should we have the same confidence in them as we have in Jehovah and Jesus? What if what they reveal to us as truth contradicts what God tells us? For example, they tell us that we must have "complete confidence" in them, yet Jehovah tells us, at Psalms 146:3,4: "Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish." Rather, in whom should we put our confidence? It goes on to say: "Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Jehovah his God." (verse 5) ....

Was it reasonable or even necessary for Paul's letters to be recognized as authoritative by early first century Christians?? If so ..at the time ....his letters were not part of the canon....so on what basis and authority could he be listened to, or could he be viewed as an apostle?? Just by his own word?? Would listening to...and being asked to become "imitators" of Paul..be listening to men?? The "Society" asks us to recognize them and obey them in a similar way as Paul did. Not in a drink the cool-aid way, but in a recognition of it's being in harmony with Jehovah's expressed will through the prophets and Jesus in scripture, and the fulfillment of the restored Christian Congregation. Obviously, where the apostle said If even ANGELS were to declare a good news other than the one you heard from us..or even if one of us were to declare a good news other than what you have heard ..let him be accursed..(paraphrasing)..in a like manner the GB has made similar expressions of balance and humility in asking us how to view the "Org."

In light of the answer to the above ...The foretold restoration of the Christian Congregation would present a similar dichotomy would it not??...Would it be ok scripturally to hold contrary opinions within it, and teach them as well??..Does recognition of it's BEING the restoration fulfillment, mean we are trusting in men? Like some could have reasoned that Paul was asking them to do?...or just what does it mean to "speak with one voice?"..to be "fitly united" in what we speak and teach?...

Then the answer to these.. begs the question....would it necessary to recognize the fulfillment of the restored Christian Congregation.. to be found among those whom Jehovah is said to spread his tent over?..Is recognition of an "Organization" violating Psalms 146: 3,4 that you quoted.."Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish." Rather, in whom should we put our confidence? It goes on to say: "Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Jehovah his God."

Rev. 2 and 3 shows a mixed bag of what Jesus finds upon his inspection of the "7 stars"...as it was in the first century..

Does that mean WE ...JW's, or our leadership are in line for judgment...Rev 2 says it is doled out individually, according to deeds, ...so despite the lost joy in service of Jehovah etc..those "who endure" and remain faithful as spoken of in Zech. 8 I think ...Jehovah will spread his tent over as he has promised to...

that's my 2 cents for what it's worth and my answer to your "My People Have Loved It That Way" essay...I hope this helps you have a different perspective to consider...
Your brother (hoping you reconsider your opinions)
 

Thank you for your letter. I very much appreciate your thoughts and your zeal for Jehovah and his household.

In regards to God’s household there exists the paradox where we belong to Jehovah and at the same time have errors and wicked men among us. To our enemies and detractors this is proof that we cannot be God’s people, while the majority of our brothers and sisters believe we cannot have errors and wicked men because we are God’s people. The fact that Jehovah has allowed this situation has been a cause of confusion and stumbling for many.

In connection with my raising the question whether we should “trust” the “faithful and discreet slave” the same as we trust God and Christ, as they insist we should, you ask whether it was reasonable or even necessary for Paul’s letters to be recognized as authoritative by the first Century Christians, and on what basis. Remember that Paul received his commission as an apostle to the nations from none other than the resurrected Jesus himself, who appeared to him on his way to Damascus. That is why Paul could say that the good news that he was preaching was not his but God’s. (Gal. 1:11,12) The apostle Peter indicates that Paul’s letters were recognized just as authoritative as “the rest of the Scriptures.” (2 Peter 3:11) The Society can not claim the same when they go beyond the things written. (1 Cor. 4:6)

Has the right to teach been given only to a select few members of a governing body? As you know, the Society teaches that the “faithful and discreet slave” is all of the anointed that are alive. That being the case, do not all those whom Jehovah has chosen and entrusted with the responsibility to feed his household have the authority to teach? Will they not all be judged and their reward depend on how they took care of their duty? Do you believe that some among them are more important in Jehovah’s eyes than others? What was the situation in the first century? The disciples were constantly arguing among themselves as to who was the greater. Yet, what did Jesus say? (see Mark 9:33-37) It’s true that some individuals were chosen for a particular work or responsibility but did that make them superior to their brothers? For example, from among the twelve apostles Peter was entrusted with the keys of the kingdom, and John was privileged to receive the Revelation regarding the Lord’s day. (Matt. 16:19; John 21:22; Rev. 1:10) Was that because those two apostles were greater than the others? Of course not. And Jehovah did not even choose from among the twelve someone to whom he gave the responsibility of taking the good news of the kingdom to the uncircumcised Gentiles. For that he chose the persecutor Saul, who became the apostle Paul, who also was used to write more of the Christian Greek Scriptures than any of the other disciples. Did that perhaps make Paul greater than any of the others?

Suppose one of the twelve apostles would hold a view that conflicted with God’s own purpose? Would the others be obligated to agree and go along with that apostle for the sake of unity? This is what happened when Peter was “not walking straight according to the truth of the good news.” Matter of fact, “he stood condemned” for he became a danger of influencing others in following his wrong course, including Barnabas, Paul’s companion. (Gal. 2:11-14) To his credit he allowed himself to be corrected by Paul. That proved he was humble, not because he might have pronounced himself to be such. What happens when the Governing Body is “not walking straight according to the truth” by going beyond the things written and conflict with God’s purpose and truth? Are we under obligation to agree and go along for the sake of unity? Were they to mislead us, as Peter was in danger of doing, would they too not stand condemned? Do they accept correction, like Peter, or do they disfellowship those who disagree with them, for the sake of unity?

What is a person supposed to do when his personal relationship with Jehovah is jeopardized because of listening to the Governing Body on something that conflicts with God’s truth, when they teach their own opinion on some point? Until about ten years ago I was very zealous in upholding and defending everything the Society was teaching us. After all, I learned the truth from them and desired to imitate their zeal in worshiping Jehovah. Although Jehovah had put up with my grieving his spirit for more than thirty years, because I refused to question their teaching on the number of the anointed having been made up in 1935, something that Jehovah had made a personal matter for me, he finally made my absolute faith in the Governing Body an issue a little over ten years ago. It had actually become a matter for me to either yield to Jehovah’s spirit, which would mean rejecting some of the things we have been taught (and thus experience the disapproval and scorn of the brothers in my congregation) or lose my hope altogether, which would also have meant losing my relationship with Jehovah. Simply put, I could not have continued as one of his witnesses.

On account of our errors, having gone beyond the things written, and wicked men among us, many have stumbled and “have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith.” (1 Tim. 1:19) We have lost over three million brothers and sisters in the past thirty years. I am acquainted with some of them. Some simply gave up because they could no longer “live up to their dedication.” They were convinced that they would not survive Armageddon anyways and so they simply quit for a less demanding life. To them some of our God dishonoring teachings became an issue and they stumbled. Do you think it matters to Jehovah, the one who notices even the fall of a sparrow? Is not one fallen brother “worth more than many sparrows?” (Matt. 10:29,30) Do the teachers of those unscriptural doctrines that have become stumbling blocks bear any responsibility in all of this?

Do you remember what Jesus said about the stumbling blocks? “Then he said to his disciples: ‘It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! It would be of more advantage to him if a millstone were suspended from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.” (Luke 17:1-2)

Do you agree that we will be held accountable if our teachings or actions stumble any of Christ’s disciples, for whom he died, or do you feel that the Governing Body is above accountability? (James 3:1)

Since all God’s servants are equal in God’s eyes is it proper for someone, especially one of the anointed, to lift himself up above his brothers and insist that everyone must listen to him and obey him, and that any dissenter would be thrown out of the congregation? (compare 3 John 9,10) Could such a man, or men, have God’s approval? Consider what Jesus said in connection with this: “In that hour the disciples came near to Jesus and said: ‘Who really is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?’ So, calling a young child to him, he set it in their midst and said: ‘Truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU turn around and become as young children, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.’” (Matthew 18:1-3) Do we have “young children” governing us?
 

Psalms 146:3-5 is more than just another interesting Scripture. Take another look at it, because the time is coming when Jehovah will make that written command a life and death issue, and it will affect every member of his household, including you. Jesus has not yet come to judge his household. He has not yet removed the stumbling blocks nor the wicked persons among us. He has not yet rewarded his faithful and wise steward with the appointment over all his belongings by having them sit on their promised thrones, which are in heaven. (Matt. 19:27,28; Rev. 3:21) And neither has he yet identified and dealt with that “evil slave” whom he is going to catch in the act of beating his fellow slaves, the ones Christ loves and died for. (Matt. 24:48-51)

At the time when the master returns the issue will have become: Did we put our trust in the nobles among us, the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs, although they claimed we cannot gain salvation apart from them, or did we put our trust and hope in Jehovah our God? Events will be maneuvered by God, in a way that won’t even be obvious to us, where each one of us will have had to make that decision, and it will be the deciding factor whether or not we will be among that great crowd that survives the great tribulation. Psalms 146 verse 3 is not just a recommendation, it is a command, and obedience to God is still the issue.

If you know what Jehovah wants and yet you do not do it, if you know what the truth actually is and yet you do not accept it, because of what you have been taught otherwise, who are you really putting your trust in? You are absolutely correct in saying that we should not hold contrary opinions, and teach them. We ought to be speaking “with one voice” and be “fitly united” as Paul wrote.

The apostle Paul foretold however that “oppressive wolves will enter in among [us] and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29,30)

Paul himself had a real struggle with some “superfine apostles” who had already “begun ruling as kings.” (1 Cor. 4:8; 2 Cor. 11:5) They were not holding to the teachings of the apostles. For example, they questioned Jesus’ promise of a resurrection of the dead. (John 5:28,29; 1 Cor. 15:12) Some taught that the resurrection had already occurred. (2 Tim. 2:18) Paul warned about those who would teach other doctrine and because they “deviated from the faith” it would result in envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions. (1 Tim. 6:3-5, 21) Do we not see this among us? Who is responsible for these sad results? The ones who insist that we submit to them and accept all of their teachings, although not based on Scripture, or those who are testing “the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God?” (1 John 4:1) Do you realize, for example, that our beloved doctrine on Dedication, which we claim is vital for salvation, is not based on God’s Word, and that the Society acknowledges that? (See Dedication) Who really are the ones responsible for causing divisions and reasons for stumbling?

As to what each one of us individually should do, especially within our own congregations, I have expressed myself on that in my article "Be Patient and Trust Jehovah", as well as in the Letter that follows it.

I wish I could hide my website from those who are sitting content and are at ease with the conditions within God’s household. Those who love it the way things are. (Zeph. 1:12; Jer. 5:26-31) My site is not meant for them. We have the responsibility to encourage and strengthen the brothers and sisters within God’s household who are “sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of [us].” (Ezek. 9:4) To have balance we need to understand the paradox that we belong to Jehovah and yet have errors and wicked men among us. At least for a little while longer. (Ps. 37:10,11)
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